Curse

Laenavesse · Sep 27, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

yes, sins can perform multiple roles. that part was never in contest. in fact, you can make any profession do anything if you know the situation beforehand. the question is, can that sin build that you made up for a specific role/situation be able to perform up to snuff when asked to perform something it is not designed to do. the answer, for all of them, is no. a better way to put this is: can a sin build perform multiple roles without changing anything on its skillbar? the answer, is no.

a spike sin cannot hope to pressure or disrupt effectively. generally much of their skillbar is dedicated to unloading that spike chain. if that chain fails to work, the sin can't do anything else to remain effective. similarily, a sin designed to spread conditions cannot effectively spike. there's simply not enough damage in their combo to allow them to do that. a sin designed to pressure cannot spike. their combo is too long and too drawn out to spike anything. lastly, no sin build ever created can effectively lineback (to those who don't know, linebacking is playing disruptively on your opponent's frontline when your monks are about to fold to help them regain energy). for all these situations, because of the limitations placed on them by the combo system, sins can do one thing and one thing only: which is whatever their combo dictates them to do. they can do no more, and usually no less (unless the player fell asleep or got hit by a truck).

and that is why the assassin is regarded as a nonversatile and gimmicky character. yes, everyone knows you can design an assassin to do whatever you want it to, but the fact that they cannot hope to do anything else if they fail to perform. we are not bashing the profession. this is just the way they are.

i'd have to point out one build (or skill) that can do both: the Signet of Deadly Corruption spike.

Jagged + Wild Strike + Vampiric Assault + Impale + Signet of Deadly Corruption + Poison Tip Signet [other skills, llike Leaping Mantis Sting, can be added/replaced but not necessary]

On a monk, it becomes pressure. On anything else, it's a "spike". It can kill an opponent with just one run through of the skill bar, with maybe one or two hits for higher AL enemies. It's not as fast as the shadow prison due to the fact that only 3 skills are actual attacks and the last two are 1 second spell types. But the damage from the Deadly Corruption signet at 16 deadly arts can give the final kill even with just 3 conditions applied, sometimes two depending. I've done this several times in RA, and yes I can bring down a tank with it. It takes another hit or two for the death, but the tank's health is brought down to less than 100 hp.

it *is* possible to "spike" the monk, i've done it before, but it's tricky. if you can pull the whole skill set off before they remove the conditions then it's golden. It's actually a good build against those who use Melandru's Resilience as they are taking in more conditions which can make the damage reach the max 130. The conditions may disappear faster but it can still work.

Back to the topic, I personally thing the Paragons and the Dervishes are no better than the assassins, so if assassins are considered worst then those two are also bad. I just never liked playing them much but that's just personal opinion.

Assassins just have less space in PvE than in PvP. They were made for the get in, spike damage, get out, and that's more useful in PvP than in PvE. In PvE, you're lucky if you can get a few hits in before the rest of the team kills the group. But they are still useful for PvE. There are still monsters that need to be killed quickly.

It goes back to the whole misconception of sins being mini tanks. And I think the Dervish may have had that issue as well. Though they can, they'd have to sacrifice half or more of the skill bar to be one.

The fact that sins can be played effective and efficiently is proof enough that they are not the worst class and also that they are people who enjoy playing them. If we look at numbers, I would think the Paragon was the "worst" as I think, THINK, I can be wrong, they are the less frequently played class. So far I've only seen the occasional few paragons anywhere. Yeah there were tons at the beginning of Nightfall, but I don't see them much anymore, especially in comparison to the Dervish and other classes. I think they're growing again though, so I might be wrong.

Anyone can play a class poorly, it's just more evident on the sins because there are more ways to goof up and be noticeable. A person can get overconfident with the mindset that "this is the super spike build of doom that will kill anything yeaaaaaaah!" The second class to have this occur a lot is the Warrior. You now those lovable guys that like to charge in head first without a care in a world and get pulverized because their high AL didn't quite save them from a giant spike from multiple other players and degen.

With casters, they're in the back so you don't readily see what the heck they're doing. For all you know they could be using crappy skills but you wouldn't notice it until after the warrior charges in and dies. Or the sin shadow steps in and dies.

Or the occasional Dervish with an avatar charge in and die >_>

The melee are the ones you see ahead of you (unless you are one) so you can see whatever fault they are doing faster than you can see behind/beside.

It also doesn't help that sins got a bad rep from the very beginning.

But they are not the worst class. None of the classes are better than the other. It's only how they are played and how they are used.

Now I sleep and let people either ignore the giant long post or pick at it mercilessly o_O

bungusmaximus · Sep 27, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Assassins win every now and then, people use them, so how can they be bad? Some builds are really fun to play, I always use something with lots of interrupts and/or KD. It isn't wtfpwnage damage but it keeps them busy for a while and might interrupt important skills in the process. And siphon speed is the best snare in the game imo

.

LightningHell · Sep 27, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laenavesse

i'd have to point out one build (or skill) that can do both: the Signet of Deadly Corruption spike.

Jagged + Wild Strike + Vampiric Assault + Impale + Signet of Deadly Corruption + Poison Tip Signet [other skills, llike Leaping Mantis Sting, can be added/replaced but not necessary]

On a monk, it becomes pressure. On anything else, it's a "spike". It can kill an opponent with just one run through of the skill bar, with maybe one or two hits for higher AL enemies. It's not as fast as the shadow prison due to the fact that only 3 skills are actual attacks and the last two are 1 second spell types. But the damage from the Deadly Corruption signet at 16 deadly arts can give the final kill even with just 3 conditions applied, sometimes two depending. I've done this several times in RA, and yes I can bring down a tank with it. It takes another hit or two for the death, but the tank's health is brought down to less than 100 hp.

it *is* possible to "spike" the monk, i've done it before, but it's tricky. if you can pull the whole skill set off before they remove the conditions then it's golden. It's actually a good build against those who use Melandru's Resilience as they are taking in more conditions which can make the damage reach the max 130. The conditions may disappear faster but it can still work.

Back to the topic, I personally thing the Paragons and the Dervishes are no better than the assassins, so if assassins are considered worst then those two are also bad. I just never liked playing them much but that's just personal opinion.

Assassins just have less space in PvE than in PvP. They were made for the get in, spike damage, get out, and that's more useful in PvP than in PvE. In PvE, you're lucky if you can get a few hits in before the rest of the team kills the group. But they are still useful for PvE. There are still monsters that need to be killed quickly.

It goes back to the whole misconception of sins being mini tanks. And I think the Dervish may have had that issue as well. Though they can, they'd have to sacrifice half or more of the skill bar to be one.

The fact that sins can be played effective and efficiently is proof enough that they are not the worst class and also that they are people who enjoy playing them. If we look at numbers, I would think the Paragon was the "worst" as I think, THINK, I can be wrong, they are the less frequently played class. So far I've only seen the occasional few paragons anywhere. Yeah there were tons at the beginning of Nightfall, but I don't see them much anymore, especially in comparison to the Dervish and other classes. I think they're growing again though, so I might be wrong.

Anyone can play a class poorly, it's just more evident on the sins because there are more ways to goof up and be noticeable. A person can get overconfident with the mindset that "this is the super spike build of doom that will kill anything yeaaaaaaah!" The second class to have this occur a lot is the Warrior. You now those lovable guys that like to charge in head first without a care in a world and get pulverized because their high AL didn't quite save them from a giant spike from multiple other players and degen.

With casters, they're in the back so you don't readily see what the heck they're doing. For all you know they could be using crappy skills but you wouldn't notice it until after the warrior charges in and dies. Or the sin shadow steps in and dies.

Or the occasional Dervish with an avatar charge in and die >_>

The melee are the ones you see ahead of you (unless you are one) so you can see whatever fault they are doing faster than you can see behind/beside.

It also doesn't help that sins got a bad rep from the very beginning.

But they are not the worst class. None of the classes are better than the other. It's only how they are played and how they are used.

Now I sleep and let people either ignore the giant long post or pick at it mercilessly o_O

Eh, I don't know about people saying it being the "worst class". They're all bashing about it being skillless, so that would imply that it at least functions to an extent without any player skill involved, assuming basic game knowledge is applied.

Your assassin role, as you described, is "pressure on monks and spike on any other character". It becomes even more complicated to find an environment for such a character, then, since your character doesn't even do its spike role fully functionally (not to say its side pressure role).

Also, you said that the "spike" is not as quick as a SP sin's spike. You cannot hope to kill with such a "spike" if there is a monk in their backline; a reasonably skilled monk can catch an SP spike, assuming they bring a proper skill bar. (By the way...who the hell runs a Melandru's Resilience monk anyway?)

And to go sidetrack with your Paragon paragraph...the Paragon is amazing in PvE, due to it practically being a ranged Warrior with buffs on top.

Just to mention lastly, but the Warrior in middle-top tier PvP is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, role to play in a match.

moriz · Sep 27, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

to those who still do not believe us, please try to find a video of the GWFC semifinal match 3 between iQ and EvIL. that match demonstrated the limitations of the assassin profession. to those who don't know, here's what happened:

EvIL (the last pride, one of the best guilds to ever play GW) were (and still is) famous for their dual assassin telegank strategy. the whole premise of there game was to utilize their superior skill, understanding of map and game mechanics to telegank their opponents' npcs and set themselves up comfortably for VoD, if not outright ganking the GL before that. iQ (idiot savants, also one of the best guilds to ever play GW), knew of EvIL's tactics and also knew the inflexibility of the assassin profession, essentially found a way to counter them. they turtled inside their guild lord area for 30 minutes, allowing EvIL to take out the outer archers and gain morale. there, iQ essentially prevented EvIL from doing any damage to their core npcs because how predictable the AoD shock assassins were (and the AoD shock assassins were one of the most versatile assassin builds ever created). once VoD hits, iQ unveils their true strategy: AoE nuke with a smiter, a trapper, and *gasp* a fire nuker (keep in mind this was before searing flames and savannah heat) that blasted EvIL's npcs into smithereens. iQ then proceeded to win the match at around 40 minutes by blasting EvIL's GL, knowing EvIL's 2 assassins and 1 warrior cannot disrupt them enough to stop it. EvIL lost that match with pretty much all of them at 10 morale boost, and did not suffer a single death in the first 35 minutes.

EvIL wanted to play a highly flashy game of telegank and did not wanted a VoD slugfest. iQ forced one down their throats knowing full well that the assassin, no matter how well played, cannot hope to keep up with warriors in a 8v8 slugfest because of the limitations placed on them by the combo system. as such, assassins were demonstrated to be a nonversatile profession even at the highest level of play, played by some of the best players to ever play GW.

lastly, i'll repeat this for the last time: we are NOT bashing the assassin. we are just stating what is fact. until you can come up with something the top players did not and prove us wrong, the assassin will always be regarded as a one trick pony that pretty much ignores the skill level of the player.

Laenavesse · Sep 27, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Eh, I don't know about people saying it being the "worst class". They're all bashing about it being skillless, so that would imply that it at least functions to an extent without any player skill involved, assuming basic game knowledge is applied.

Your assassin role, as you described, is "pressure on monks and spike on any other character". It becomes even more complicated to find an environment for such a character, then, since your character doesn't even do its spike role fully functionally (not to say its side pressure role).

Also, you said that the "spike" is not as quick as a SP sin's spike. You cannot hope to kill with such a "spike" if there is a monk in their backline; a reasonably skilled monk can catch an SP spike, assuming they bring a proper skill bar. (By the way...who the hell runs a Melandru's Resilience monk anyway?)

And to go sidetrack with your Paragon paragraph...the Paragon is amazing in PvE, due to it practically being a ranged Warrior with buffs on top.

Just to mention lastly, but the Warrior in middle-top tier PvP is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, role to play in a match.

well a monk should be able to catch anything, there's no perfection to it o.O Like you say, it should be able to catch an SP spike, so why shouldn't they be able to catch the medium "spikes"? xD I'm just saying the build has enough damage to become a "spike" hence why i used quotes and never actually called it a spike.

and i was really just going on RA (you want a Mel Resistance monk, go there >_>) since I'm usually cut back to monking if it's ever on anything else xD in PvE I just use the DB Spam build as the big mobs tend to group around the tank and they go bye bye

Everything else I have no qualms with really, as my post was just stuff on what I thought about the classes.

And in the example moriz gave, I'm not sure if I can really see that as an example of limitation for the whole use of the assassin since..it's only showing the skillbars that one guild used o_O I mean yeah...you can run those builds but those aren't the only builds. So I'm not really sure how that's a sign of non-versatility when you only got 8 skills you can use at one time o_O

zling · Sep 27, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

the biggest problem with assassins nowadays is that the metagame is based on blockway which ruins the assassin's combos completely. a warrior can pull off an eviscerate/crip slash/dragon slash/backbreaker/devastating hammer on some minor occasions, but those skills alone are enough to make an impact. an assassin needs to pull off his entire combo to make an impact.
also the famous BoA sin that turned into SP Sin used horns of the ox followed by falling spider and than something that uses poison, signet of toxic shock was a very popular option here, which needs target to be alone to pull the combo off, not to mention not block any of the attacks. in the current blockway meta you will rarely find targets alone, perhaps flag runners or lone gankers but that's it, and both of those usually have plenty of counters to a sin's combo...

Bobby2 · Sep 27, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Of course, assassins are perfect in scrub arenas, because assassins are very effective characters to use against bad players, and bad players are somewhat effective using them.

1. Yes, they are VERY effective against bad players. The surprise factor of a shadow step alone seems to upset a lot of people.
2. Bad players are somewhat... WHAT?

Care to explain your statement?

Coloneh · Sep 27, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

he means that assasins are easy to use effectively, so even bad players can do it.

Laenavesse · Sep 27, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

the biggest problem with assassins nowadays is that the metagame is based on blockway which ruins the assassin's combos completely. a warrior can pull off an eviscerate/crip slash/dragon slash/backbreaker/devastating hammer on some minor occasions, but those skills alone are enough to make an impact. an assassin needs to pull off his entire combo to make an impact.
also the famous BoA sin that turned into SP Sin used horns of the ox followed by falling spider and than something that uses poison, signet of toxic shock was a very popular option here, which needs target to be alone to pull the combo off, not to mention not block any of the attacks. in the current blockway meta you will rarely find targets alone, perhaps flag runners or lone gankers but that's it, and both of those usually have plenty of counters to a sin's combo...

I'd have to disagree on the whole block issue, there are tons of skills that allow you to get by it. Way of the Fox, the Fox skill line itself, and Wild Strike will get rid of any stances and is unblockable.

I think that's why the deadly arts are becoming more popular as for like the dancing daggers sin, it won't matter if they block, the skills are spells and signets so they'll go through. And hardly no one brings Spell Breaker except in PvE. But that's a more a PvP specific build, though it can work in PvE.

Also, people can use Trampling Ox rather than Horns of the Ox now for the KD and use the Black Mantis Sting if you use a hex shadow step or even Leaping Mantis Sting if you just went for a normal shadow step or dash. And it's actually easier to use Horns on the Ox on someone because to be adjacent to someone you literally had to be one or two spots away from the next person. Even if you look adjacent you can still get knocked down.

As for bad players being able to play sins "well"...I don't know. I'm not really sure what to say about that because I can see your argument. But taking from my own experience I've myself have tried new classes with a new build and done well with it. For like a Necro and Reaper's Mark, for example. Find a melee, hit Reckless, Price of Failure, Insiduous Parasite, then load on the degen. Not that hard, anyone could do it.

What some newtime sin players might mistake is that they'll be able to kill before they die...like maybe if they use Shadow Prison or any shadow step skill (PvE or PvP) on a target that's in t he middle of the mob or far away from the monk and just die. I've seen it happen (in both places) and I would consider that a bad player...I would not consider someone who recognizes they need to get the hell out of there a bad player. MAYBE if they jumped in and then realized they messed up they might be a bad player but they still recognized the "oh crap" part. Bleh don't know if that made any sense.

I'm just thinking that anyone should be able to see what the skills do, and be able to pull it off. If they also know the limitations of their class.

Now I'm unsure of the use of a "skill player" considering everything that goes on. Can someone give me a good example of where real skill comes to play? oO Do you mean being able to pick out the right target and use the build, whatever it is, effectively? Or using something that's not part of the "mainstream" so to speak? People say the SP sin requires no skill but it gets the job done fast and rather easily. So do you mean that skill is something that is more challenging yet equally as fast and easy? o.O And yet you still hit the same buttons in maybe a different order, but still an order nonetheless?

I just want clarification that's all ^^; I was always rather confused on what exactly a "skilled" player is since it can have many different definitions.

(I guess I could then ask for the definition of a "bad player" but I already know what the general idea is. Though it would be nice to see it laid flat out)

Bobby2 · Sep 28, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Ehm, maybe a tiny spark.

1. Most squishies (those are the ones I target, if I have a choice at all) don't have those skills.
2. Ah, a combo. Wow. This game must be so boring for you

3. When recharging or low on health, this is basically what any class should do...
4. ..and that counts for this statement as well if it's effective enough to do the job.

Passes back the flame.

thetechx · Sep 28, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

i used to dislike sins until i met one that single-handedly tanked my group through the final mission in proph.
now i have a sin and am hero/henching everything in NF better than i did with my other classes.

oh and there is no worst class, they all have advantages and disadvantages. paragons IMO though have the worst disadvantage, as they are only good with a party.

Bobby2 · Sep 28, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Anyway you put it it's stupid to say SP is the only thing going for the Assassin class.

I took Moebius Breeze for a spin. Spamming KDs = excellent shutdown. Doesn't take a genius, or a GW expert, to recognize that. I mixed in Death Blossom, just to keep the Dual-Moebius chain going when target's health > 50%. To put it in a certain Storm Lord's terms you'd go

12343535343434omgI'mconfusedyeahrealboringbuthe'sd eadsowhyshouldIcare.

It's just an example of what Assassins do really well besides SP combo'ing someone to death (or not). Please gentlemen non-noobs make this discussion interesting again.

gloria vander belt · Sep 28, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

there is no worst class, but there is the more needed class'ess

1.warrior(tank all the damage or most)
2.ranger(undecided)
3.monk(healing)
4.elementalist(AoE damage)
5.necro(many reasons, minion army being the main reason)

then you have ur support roles u can bring with you if u want
1.mesmer(i have found to be more usefull then Ele's but that My Opinion)
2.assassin(artful dodgers, can be really good if used right)
3.paragons(pretty much another tank with a spear)
4.dervish(had one of these with me and can say they can replace a tank)
5.ritualist(wow, i took a pug with me once and the damage these things can do was amazing, not to mention it could out tank me)

so really if u play any class right it can be very effective!!

but to many pug's have no idea how skills work and have turned some proffessions into a laughing stock

Now i primarily play as a tank, but use to have an assassin(only died 3 times ever, and they were at very beggining) and only reason i deleted it was cus the only groups i could get were heros and henchies or noobs and when using heros and henchies u have to cut out one of the main needed proffessions for the group, i primarily replaced the ranger but did find luring with an assassin a bit of a trick(didnt use bow, i used shadow stepping ETC) wich was fun but after a while of seeing how uneeded an Assassin was i just decided to delete her and stick with my Tank(PvE), Ranger(PvE), Monk(PvE), Necro(PvE) and Elementalist(PvP).

but sadly i miss the adrenaline filled rushes of playing with an Assassin(not starting another 1)

LightningHell · Sep 28, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Constructive discussion here, please. No trolling.

Tyla · Sep 28, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

contrary to last pages posts...
does THIS use shadow prison?

[skill]way of the empty palm[/skill][skill]tiger stance[/skill]or[skill]lightning reflexes[/skill][skill]golden phoenix strike[/skill][skill]horns of the ox[/skill]or[skill]twisting fangs[/skill][skill]black spider strike[/skill][skill]twisting fangs[/skill]or[skill]blades of steel[/skill][skill]dark prison[/skill][skill]siphon speed[/skill]

i dont see no shadow prison here

LightningHell · Sep 28, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laenavesse

well a monk should be able to catch anything, there's no perfection to it o.O Like you say, it should be able to catch an SP spike, so why shouldn't they be able to catch the medium "spikes"? xD I'm just saying the build has enough damage to become a "spike" hence why i used quotes and never actually called it a spike.

And in the example moriz gave, I'm not sure if I can really see that as an example of limitation for the whole use of the assassin since..it's only showing the skillbars that one guild used o_O I mean yeah...you can run those builds but those aren't the only builds. So I'm not really sure how that's a sign of non-versatility when you only got 8 skills you can use at one time o_O

To spike means to concentrate damage into a small time frame, hoping to kill the target before the opposition defense can react. Thus, your combo cannot really be classified as a spike, as it is too easily defended against.

Moriz uses the SP sin as an example because there simply are not any other builds in the PvP scenario that are more effective than the SP sin.

Laenavesse · Sep 28, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To spike means to concentrate damage into a small time frame, hoping to kill the target before the opposition defense can react. Thus, your combo cannot really be classified as a spike, as it is too easily defended against.

Moriz uses the SP sin as an example because there simply are not any other builds in the PvP scenario that are more effective than the SP sin.

And hence why it's in quotes! ^_^ It still does wonderful damage though :3 And that's all that I want from it.

And okay, that gives me a clearer picture of a spike, but still not the skill part. Still, a monk who sees the Hex (or even a sin) should be able to place at least one or two prot skills before they are ganked and thus reduce the damage. But I do see how the SP sin is a spike.

And now I have to point out your argument that there are no "other builds builds in the PvP scenario that are more effective than the SP sin." I'd have to say a no to that one. It's not the only build you can run. Anything that can incapacitate your target will do it. Shroud of Silence and any of the daze skills, for example, followed by any of the KD skills can cripple a caster. Shroud can be countered by holy veil if used on monk or general hex removal, but the KD would help delay that (unless from a monk, but that should be dead first anyway).

The SP sin deals lots of damage, no doubt about it. It gives a giant snare AND shadow steps you to the target, which is what allows for the damage to begin with. If you have KD in the line then it's even better.

But what moriz was saying was that it's basically the ONLY build a sin can use and that is not true. If you want the known instant kill, then maybe it is. But if you know that there are other ways to incapacitate a target (so you can't get all of the professions, then just work on the squishies which is what should be happening anyway) then work on it to deal as much damage as well.

moriz · Sep 28, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

the take home message is this (i've repeated this so many times already, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in): a sin cannot readjust his game without changing his skill bar. that's why sins are relegated to the 1-trick gimmick role. if that one trick happens to work, great. if that one trick fails to work, the team might as well be running one man short because there's little else the sin player can do.

Bobby2 · Sep 28, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the take home message is this (i've repeated this so many times already, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in): a sin cannot readjust his game without changing his skill bar.

lolz. What class CAN do this, then?

Stormlord Alex · Sep 28, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

A Warrior can, easily.

Look at the standard shockaxe - he can pressure just by hitting Frenzy, play disruption with Bull's and Shock, and spike hard.
And a good warrior will be able to do all 3, depending on the situation.

A standard SP sin could not - no matter how great he is as a player, the build he uses restricts his available options. There's not a chance in hell of him disrupting, or pressuring, or having any kind of utility other than one mean spike.